catholic answers forum working4christ 4 dummies

Faith1960 · Today, 1:23 pm

I know it's an ages old question but why doesn't God regrow limbs on those who'd suffered amputations or make a dwarf taller? Why are all the miracles that happen interventions that can have other explanations, like remission?

Are there any documented miracles where a limb has regrown or other healing has happened that is truly impossible to have happened on its own?

**Della** · #2 Today, 1:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

I know it's an ages old question but why doesn't God regrow limbs on those who'd suffered amputations or make a dwarf taller? Why are all the miracles that happen interventions that can have other explanations, like remission?

Are there any documented miracles where a limb has regrown or other healing has happened that is truly impossible to have happened on its own?

Yes, there are documented cases of people having been healed of all sorts of "impossible" ailments/injuries.

Having said that, the Church has a rigorous criteria for miracles, so many, that are casually reported, are not verified by the Church. Those that are verified must pass several tests before being declared miraculous.

Faith1960 · #3 Today, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Della

Yes, there are documented cases of people having been healed of all sorts of "impossible" ailments/injuries.

Having said that, the Church has a rigorous criteria for miracles, so many, that are casually reported, are not verified by the Church. Those that are verified must pass several tests before being declared miraculous.

Can you please list some, not counting a cure for Parkinson's Disease that IIRC is attributed to Blessed John Paul II, since PD can go into remission without Divine intervention?

**Della** · #4 Today, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

Can you please list some, not counting a cure for Parkinson's Disease that IIRC is attributed to Blessed John Paul II, since PD can go into remission without Divine intervention?

You may want to Google it. Try Lourdes, Fatima, etc. Or just look under Church approved miracles. I don't have examples at hand, but I have read about them from reliable sources.

**GEddie** · #5 Today, 2:58 pm

Just in passing.... Since 1858, literally thousands of putatively miraculous intercessions have been associated with the apparitions at Lourdes, however, only 65 are attested by the Church as miracles.

The Church has a full-time investigative office in Lourdes. By far, the greater part of "miraculous" occurrences there, as elsewhere , are determined to have "natural causes."

ICXC NIKA

Gwendolen · Feb 10, '13, 12:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigg

I understand this part and am really not disagreeing with you, only pointing out that the personal sins of the priest cannot invalid the Mass or sacraments which bring grace into the life of the soul. Does it damage the "moral voice" of the Church and appear to be hypocritical to the world? I'd say yes for those only looking at the human institution without understanding the supernatural dimension or regarding the fact that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself .

Speaking for myself, and for Catholics in general, ultimately, this would be equivalent to losing your faith if you let go of the fact that the leadership of the Church is the Holy Spirit, and no longer believed the Church to hold the Truth as revealed by God. And the Catholic Church, which I believe is in the process of purification, is not the only guilty one perpetrating this type of crime.

the fact that the Catholic Church is not the only church guilty of this type of crime is irrelevant. It is hard to articulate, but the abuse was so widespread and heinous, and so ignored, that I think in some people's minds it ceased to "merely" be of the sin of man, and be a sin of the Church as an institution as a whole. I have personally did not witness truly devout Catholics leave because of this, but those who were less devout, and looking to strengthen their faith, this did not help. The Church may have been founded by Christ, but surely you can guess how one might look at the horror of what happened, and second guess if the Holy Spirit was really leading the Church. That could be really hard for some of the victims, and those close to them, to swallow.

The mass also may be valid, but it would be hard for someone to receive thinking are the hands touching the Body of Christ going to later be molesting my child, if I am ever comfortable enough here to let my guard down. People may perceive they could potentially be trading a valid sacrament for potential loss of their child's innocence.

This did not keep us from attending church, but when my son served in the Episcopal.. Church we later left, I did not leave him unattended. I was physically present when he went in the back to put on his robes. I did not leave him alone with the acolyte master, a genuine man of God whom I and my son adored. This was a direct result of the scandal in the Catholic church (even though the Episcopal Church certainly had enough scandals of its own) My teen daughter was as closely guarded.

Although in our case the scandal did not keep us from church, it certainly changed my trust. I can sympathize with someone closer to what happened who would choose not to go. As a parent of a child old enough to leave your side, young enough to be very vulnerable, it is really hard.

**pnewton** · Feb 7, '13, 5:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobCatholic

Conversion stories.

Ex-catholics ALWAYS bash the Church for something.

Exactly my point. Anecdotes. Stories. I think your absolute characterizations do not hold up to scrutiny.

manualman · #47 Feb 7, '13, 12:51 pm

As usual with messy humans, the reasons vary. Sometimes its basically the fault of those who leave, sometimes its the fault of those who witnessed a horribly faulty version of the gospel to them. Most often, it's a combination of both.

The fact is that although the Church was created by God and entrusted to us, we've done a bad job with the gift we've been given. It goes back to that thing about needing a Savior. Still do!

It's hard to deny that several generations of American catholics have been poorly catechized and even more poorly evangelized. It's kind of hard to blame somebody who never encountered the love of Christ in a fellow catholic and never learned the truth about the divine gifts of the sacraments for jumping ship when they encountered fired up and holy evangelical protestants and wanted to feel that way themselves.

Curtis Martin's quote sounds smug unless you've been around both kinds of converts enough to understand what he's saying. Essentially, he's saying that people who leave catholicism do so because somehow they didn't feel they encountered Christ here. Sometimes the departure comes after disgust, sometimes it happens when they are inspired by the Holy Spirit present in a christian of a separated community. But people who leave evangelicalism for catholicism do so because they HAVE encountered Christ in their protestant community and listened to Him closely enough to discover that He really did found one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. And they want to join!

manualman · #48 Feb 7, '13, 12:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1roman

Else where in the meta Dan Phillips mentioned to me that we should have a contest.

“How many Romish anathemas can you rack up?”

I decided to count the number of anathemas that I am under from the 33 canons on justification. My count is 23 anathemas as I understand the canons. I tried to consider any nuances. Keep in mind that this is only 1 of 25 sessions of Trent.

Leading the church requires BOTH proposing the truth of the gospel AND being diligent to suppress erroneous ideas. In the early church, the apostles clearly did both as can easily be seen in the New Testament. You may have a point that in the era of Trent, the suppression of error was emphasized to excess at the expense of proclaiming the joyfulness of the gospel. But you can hardly argue that the jettisoning of apostolic authority to suppress error hasn't been a disaster just as bad for y'all too. That approach has created spiritual anarchy where anybody who can read the bible declares himself to be the final authority on interpreting it and we have tens of thousands of nominally christian communities all disagreeing with each other and yet each claiming to preach the gospel faithful to the bible. That's MORE absurd than all those anethemas you mock!

PJM · #49 Feb 7, '13, 3:25 pm

Quote:

=Mike30;10326184]I think many leave due to disillusionment, bitterness and a sense of betrayal.. For instance my sister left, not only the Church but faith in God period due to the problems of suffering in the world on the part of innocents and the actions and non action on the part of many in the Church hierachry towards the child and sexual abuse scandals. She could not reconcile these things in her mind and she left.

I know many others who feel that the Church let them down by these same things and departed as well. And in no small part I can see their confusion and their dismay at what has transpired.

The problem here is that these folks are CONFUSING "the Church"; with the people [clergy included who are only members of the church]. Their decsion is highly judgemental and sadly puts their own souls at grave risk. Heb 6:4-8

Meambers of the Chruch can and do sin; but "the Church"; LIKE HER FOUNDER is:

One

Holy &

Thanks to Christ Catholic [Universal]

and Apostolic [Following in their path]

The church cannot sin; only Her members can.

What amazes ME, is that Fact that they literally walk out on; walk away from thier God; our Jesus

God Help us!

pat/PJM

Oneofthewomen · #50 Feb 7, '13, 3:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Why do and are catholics leaving the Church and possibily their salvation. Heb. 6:4-8

Continued Blessings,

Pat

I left the Church as a young adult and was gone for over 15 years and spent most of those years identifying as “spiritual but not religious”.

I did not have a strong religious upbringing. I was baptized because it was expected. We went to Mass occasionally, Christmas & Easter mostly, and sometimes with my grandparents. I learned the Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be & the Sign of the Cross from my Italian great-grandmother, in both Italian & English. I also prayed the Rosary with her, but that was really the extent of my catechesis until I was about 10 when I was enrolled in “CCD” and spent 2 hours every Saturday reading cheesy “textbooks” and doing crafts.
I received First Communion, First Penance & Confirmation (yes, in that order

) all by the time I was 14 and then I ‘graduated’ and was know an ‘adult member of the Church’ yet there was nothing to help me grow in my faith.

To complicate matters, my father was Episcopalian. My grandfather’s family had strong ties to the Episcopal Church and although he himself was basically “non-practicing” and my grandmother had never been baptized, my father & his siblings were baptized/confirmed so we attended church functions with my aunts, uncles & cousins at their church often. I even witnessed my grandmother's baptism on her 60th birthday!
We received communion and were told it was “OK”, because it was basically the same thing as Catholic, Episcopalian’s just didn’t believe in the Pope, and he’s just a man, not God, so what difference did it make…”

I also had some run-ins with some rather unpleasant, very un-pastoral and unprofessional clergy and laity who worked for the Church, as well as many run-ins with some of the “more Catholic than the Pope” crowd, which to be honest, just left a “bad taste in my mouth”. If this is what it means to be “religious”, I’ll pass, thank you very much, was pretty much my attitude.

Now, how & why I came back are not important for this discussion, but I should mention, that when I came back, I was still most definitely a “cafeteria Catholic” who leaned very far into heterodoxy/borderline heresy.
By the grace of God, a couple wonderful spiritual directors/confessors and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, as well as my studies for my Master’s degree in Sacramental & Pastoral Ministry, I have experienced a metanoia, and have started to embrace a more orthodox spirituality, using St. Ignatius’ wisdom as a guide for discernment.
The question I always try to ask myself is
“Am I doing/saying this for my glory or for HIS?” I don’t always choose the “better part” but with His grace, I am getting better.

To wrap up, you quote Hebrews, and in verse 4, I believe you answer your own question-

Quote:

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit.

I truly believe that those who leave are, for the most part like me, raised “culturally Catholic”, with no real catechesis, so therefore they have never been “enlightened”.

ETA: for a time-frame reference, I am the same age as the Missal of Paul VI!

1protestant · #51 Feb 7, '13, 4:33 pm

well the many catholics i have met in the assemblies of God , or in the calvery chaple churches and the penecostial -- left because of he poor teaching and the lack of fellowship they found in the catholic. So they found better scripture understanding and spiritual life in other fellowships..

It would seem that the catholic education system has to compete with other religious groups and one can see the result.. and each group is "right in their own eyes"

and the other group lovingly points their finger to tell them they are wrong..

and where i grew up in the DETROIT area-- i know many catholics who were led astray and molested.. but as they say-- ya can't take that stuff "personal" just next time recognize a deceiver and a pervert..

just because a person calls them self a catholic and goes to mass once a well dosen't make them a good person..

Annabelle Marie · #52 Feb 7, '13, 5:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

The problem here is that these folks are CONFUSING "the Church"; with the people [clergy included who are only members of the church]. Their decsion is highly judgemental and sadly puts their own souls at grave risk. Heb 6:4-8

Meambers of the Chruch can and do sin; but "the Church"; LIKE HER FOUNDER is:

One

Holy &

Thanks to Christ Catholic [Universal]

and Apostolic [Following in their path]

The church cannot sin; only Her members can.

What amazes ME, is that Fact that they literally walk out on; walk away from thier God; our Jesus

God Help us!

pat/PJM

Not necessarily...I left to walk towards Jesus...and I learned a lot about Him and the bible in my protestant faith. And draw closer to Him back in the Church. But I didn't lose Him.

I don't think threads such as these are productive. Why can we not listen to what people have to say and let that be a lesson to us? Someone left because people deeply wounded them? Do we see that in our parish? Are we that person? Let that be a call to us to reach out.

People left due to no teaching? How much are we doing in our homes/with our families/ or are friends? Do we know ourselves? Maybe that is what our lesson is.

It shouldn't be why did they leave (and judging them for that) but how do we get them back...how do we reach out. Or better yet...how do we reach out to those amongst us to help make sure that they don't leave.

fred conty · #53 Feb 7, '13, 6:06 pm

Reasons for leaving summary in this thread.

1. Ignorance of the faith
2. Divorced, and go to another church.
3. Hurt by someone in the church, real or imaginary.
4. Priest scandal
5. Keep family unity by attending spouse's church
6. Fun and games.
7. Same sex issues.
8. Getting nothing from it.
9. other...

Maria Simma who wrote a book about purgatory, who was a mystic, had this to say.

"It is not the teaching of the church that is at fault. The people in positions of authority neglected to teach their young that Jesus is all good, all positive, and all loving. They preached too many threats and too little about love. They taught almost nothing about the immense beauty of prayer and of fasting. They pushed aside Our Lady and St. Michael the Archangel, and when that happens, the two greatest intercessors for us are neglected and then turmoil is always the result. So, in short, I would say that due to the lack of these: love, prayer, fasting penance, Our Lady and St. Michael; Satan was permitted to gain ground on all fronts."

Just a thought.

LINVS · #54 Feb 7, '13, 8:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

Real charitable! We must have left because we were weeds? Thanks a lot! Obviously you have never been deeply wounded.....

Oh, the fires of Hell are REAL; and, Jesus WILL cast the unworthy into eternal damnation.
It's not politically correct, but the will of God isn't at all influenced by a society which permits all and critizices none.

I understood the OP to refer to those who are brought up in the faith but just "drift away" under their own accord. Perhaps they find it too much an inconvience to follow the commands of the Church or they just have other interests in life. It is a reality that there are people who would rather watch TV than worship God and don't see a need to get their children the Sacraments.

Now what "deep wound" can the Church have committed? Perhaps the child abuse scandal? I would hope the victims and their families would be able to separate the actions of individual priests and even a corrupt diocese from Holy Mother Church. If they can't it's a supreme mistake.

nicolakirwan · #55 Feb 7, '13, 9:50 pm

[quote=CopticChristian;10326934]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolakirwan;
Nicol,

I disagree. [B

Scott Hahn and people like him worked hard to find the truth. [/b] Catholics have the truth and are less inclined to read everything and judge everything to prove themselves right. There are some Catholics, as you might imagine, whose names go unmentioned. While we hear of the likes of Luther, Calvin, etc....I cannot think of any name or names that are responsible for formulating the Doctrines of the Council of Trent and those were some pretty smart fellas.....

Scott Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Francis Beckwith and other Evangelical Protestants who converted to Catholicism speak very highly of their time in their Protestant Churches. Hahn's wife Kimberly Hahn has spoke glowingly of her Presbyterian upbringing and the faith of her Protestant family, some of whom are Presbyterian ministers. In fact, there are episodes upon episodes of The Journey Home that feature people who converted to Catholicism yet speak quite well of the spiritual benefit they received in their Protestant churches.

So as it pertains to the point that I made in response to another poster's quip, that there are many Protestant converts who are spoken of as being such devout Catholics, they themselves attribute a great amount of value to their Protestant heritage. If they sought diligently after the truth, they did so before the Catholic Church taught them such. So that only undergirds my point that to then "take credit" for virtues that someone exhibited before they entered the Church, virtues which they credit at least in part to their Protestant upbringing, is illegitimate.

Their testimonies are free and available for all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Nicol,

Wonder how the polls and press treat the Anglican community with the approval of ordination of women and homosexual ministers?

The polls asked people why they left the Catholic Church. That is the question that this thread addresses. And that is the question the polls address--since people often complain that anecdotes aren't sufficient, concrete numbers were made available, including some that came from the Catholic Church's own information gathering.

If you are curious about the Anglican Communion (especially as it is off topic in this thread) and would like answers to your question, there are plenty of ways to find out such information through your own research. Looking up the Anglican Church in North America and VirtueOnline would be places that would provide you with plenty of ammunition against those with whom you find fault since they do too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

I agree, which is the prime reason I prefaced that by saying "learn more about it on their own". In other words, why wouldn't they research their issue. Like going on to CAF. This is a fine evangelization effort not only for non-Catholics and non-Christians, but also for badly Catechized Catholics as well.

I think that there was wisdom shared above, that it is not helpful to presume what people should have done when you do not know the circumstances. It is based on the thought that others know what you know, are aware of the things you're aware of, have the skills that you have (research, education, etc.), have been exposed to the truths that you've been exposed to. Without speaking to someone personally and in detail, you won't know.

A key aspect of the reconciliation process is listening. Being able to hear and accept someone else's experience even if it does not match one's own. Many seem to insist on assigning blame (this is not directed toward you, op). If as much energy were put into correcting the problems multiple witnesses have testified to, we'd have less need to ask the question in the first place.

Annabelle Marie · #56 Feb 7, '13, 10:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LINVS

Oh, the fires of Hell are REAL; and, Jesus WILL cast the unworthy into eternal damnation.
It's not politically correct, but the will of God isn't at all influenced by a society which permits all and critizices none.

Agreed...and there are plenty of Catholics that will be surprised when they end up there...there have been plenty of visions with some Bishops in hell. Do we suppose that it is only limited to them? That hell is only for all non-Catholics?

Quote:

I understood the OP to refer to those who are brought up in the faith but just "drift away" under their own accord. Perhaps they find it too much an inconvience to follow the commands of the Church or they just have other interests in life. It is a reality that there are people who would rather watch TV than worship God and don't see a need to get their children the Sacraments.

That is not what the OP said..."Why do and are catholics leaving the Church?" Nothing says that they were brought up with full knowledge of the faith or that they just drift away. Some do...some don't. But it appears that people don't want to hear the reasons..they want to feel superior that they stayed.

Quote:

Now what "deep wound" can the Church have committed? Perhaps the child abuse scandal? I would hope the victims and their families would be able to separate the actions of individual priests and even a corrupt diocese from Holy Mother Church. If they can't it's a supreme mistake.

Obviously you have never been sexually abused....you think that is so easy? What about a child who has a father who minimally teaches her the faith...but not a lot of it...maybe takes her to Mass with the rest of the family...and then is sexually abusing her at night? You think that is not a deep wound? You think it's one that is so easily forgotten? Or seperated?

You know nothing.........

You remind me of that gospel story....of the two men praying..."Oh Lord...I am so thankful that I am not like that poor sinner back there..." God is not pleased with that....

Annabelle Marie · #57 Feb 7, '13, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicolakirwan

I think that there was wisdom shared above, that it is not helpful to presume what people should have done when you do not know the circumstances. It is based on the thought that others know what you know, are aware of the things you're aware of, have the skills that you have (research, education, etc.), have been exposed to the truths that you've been exposed to. Without speaking to someone personally and in detail, you won't know.

A key aspect of the reconciliation process is listening. Being able to hear and accept someone else's experience even if it does not match one's own. Many seem to insist on assigning blame (this is not directed toward you, op). If as much energy were put into correcting the problems multiple witnesses have testified to, we'd have less need to ask the question in the first place.

AMEN...since I know of a lot of people who left long before the internet...you couldn't just go look these things up....

Cat · #58 Feb 8, '13, 3:39 am

What it all comes down to is that Catholics who leave aren't convinced that personal involvement with the Catholic Church is vital to their lives here on earth and in eternity.

I agree with all those who say that people leave because they get hurt. Sometimes it's something very serious, like being abused at the hands of a cleric or layperson. But more often, it's something that seems silly--perhaps a fellow parishioner insulted them after choir one day, or the Committee rejected their bid for their store to provide the new carpeting. Often, it is their child who gets hurt; it might be something very trivial on the surface (e.g., a parishioner tells them that their child is a "troublemaker" or "too noisy" or "not very bright"). But it's enough to drive people away from church.

These incidents are not silly to the person who is walking wounded.

There is an excellent book called Exit Interviews: Revealing Stories of Why People are Leaving Church, by William Hendricks. Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/Exit-Interview.../dp/0802423183

The book isn't available off the shelf anymore, and I believe it's out of print, so you'll have to order a used copy online. No wonder--it's the saddest book you'll ever read and it will break your heart and depress you bigtime. I could only read one chapter at a time. I personally think that every pastor should read it. I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the subject in this thread.

There is another reason for attrition that I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread. I think a lot of people just fall out of the habit of attending Mass (or church, if they are Protestant).

Perhaps they or a family member gets sick, and they skip a few weeks for a very legitimate reason. Then they stay home a few more weeks to "catch up" on all the tasks that they didn't do while they were involved with the sickness. Then something comes up, perhaps overtime at work, or a trip out of town, or a family reunion, or a family crisis at home (house gets broken into, heater breaks down, dog dies, etc.).

And they keep missing church, week after week. A year goes by, and they never make it to church. Oh, they plan to go on Easter, but there's a freak snowstorm and the weatherman advises everyone to stay home, so they do. And they plan to go at Christmas, but they go to a Saturday evening party and stay out so late and since they're used to sleeping in on Sunday, they just oversleep, and they're not sure if the parish still has the "hangover Mass" at 12:30 p.m., and they never liked the Sunday evening Mass because of all the rock music, so they just stay home.

Then embarrassment sets in. They can't go back because they're too embarrassed! And they're afraid that no one will recognize them.

The years go by. Some never go back. Many others go back because a crisis finally gets their attention, and they go back to Church and God.

"Habit" is perhaps the saddest reason for leaving church. We can sympathize with those who have been hurt in church, and we can even sympathize with those who leave because they no longer believe.

But to just get out of the habit of going seems so lazy to us. It happens, though, all the time. I think that if an honest poll were done of all who have left Catholic and Protestant churches, this would probably be the Number One Reason why people have left.

Boy Wonder · #59 Feb 8, '13, 5:14 am

Why do Catholics leave the Church?

The behavior of other Catholics.
An unpleasant experience with a priest, bishop, or religious.
They remarry and deny themselves the sacraments then get angry about it.
They buy into the arguments against the Church put forth by the media and in universities.
Often there's some sexual sin they'd rather not forsake. They call it something else, but this is the driving reason.
They're Uncle Toms.
They never learned or understood the faith.
They marry outside the faith.
They prefer to be entertained at Church.
It requires a searching and fearless look at themselves.

Many other reasons besides. Rather than be angry with them, we should seek out the lost sheep.

clem456 · #60 Feb 8, '13, 7:21 am

Realize that just about any of the reasons mentioned here for leaving the Catholic Church could be applied to those leaving any other church as well. Food for thought.

Living an authentic Catholic life is difficult. It's the most difficult thing we well ever do. And if it's not difficult, we're not living it authentically. Catholicism has one concept that other churches don't subscribe to: that there is an objective truth that lives in the Catholic Church that requires our obedience. Whether it's the Eucharist, sanctity of marriage, sanctity of life, authority and obedience, it all boils down to whether you will accept objective truth. It's very difficult to accept that, our pride resists it. We want to make our own minds up, there's always an easier way than obedience.

I don't hear many other congregations talking about truth. To do so in our society is considered harsh, intolerant, arrogant. People incorrectly equate obedience with servitude. So people go where the water is warmer and they don't have to deal with the "O" word..
If there's only one Catholic left standing, is there still a Catholic Church?

catholic answers forum working4christ 4 dummies

Tuesday, September 10, 2013

Are there any documented miracles where a limb has regrown or other healing has happened that is truly impossible to have happened on its own? catholic answers forum-- working4christ2

Monday, September 9, 2013

Part 1 (Early Church History A.D. 50-313)

Part 1 (Early Church History A.D. 50-313)

Part 2 (Early Church History A.D. 313-451)

Part 3 (Early Church History Concluded & Church History In the Middle Ages A.D. 313-1517)

Part 4 (The Reformation and Early Protestantism 1517-1750)

really not disagreeing with you, only pointing out that the personal sins of the priest cannot invalid the Mass or sacraments which bring grace into the life of the soul.

catholic answers forum Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church working4christ2